From Computerworld,Vineet Nayar, the highly respected CEO of HCL Technologies, one of India's hottest IT services vendors ... related a recent experience with an education official in a large U.S. state. The official wanted to know why HCL, a $2.5 billion (revenue) company with more than 3,000 people across 21 offices in 15 states, wasn't hiring more people in his state. Vineet's short answer: because most American college grads are "unemployable."I agree to a certain extent. I worked for a dot.bomb until 2001, and in the two years leading up to the bust the company was on an insane hiring binge, bringing in code monkeys fresh out of high school. They didn't even need college, they just needed to code. They were cocky SOBs, too. 20-year-old kids with no college demanding $60, $70 even $80k, or they'd walk. Almost as bad, they demanded that management add "engineer" to their job titles. The majority of them played video games most of the day.
...
They're far less inclined than students from developing countries like India, China, Brazil, South Africa, and Ireland to spend their time learning the "boring" details of tech process, methodology, and tools--ITIL, Six Sigma, and the like. ... [So] most Americans are just too expensive to train.
But that was then. That insanity is long gone, and the people doing IT work now are for the most part qualified. I also wonder where the great Indian tech products are. Mr. Nayar, if Indian IT people are so much better, where's India's equivalent of the iPod? A Blackberry? A Mac? Was Photoshop created by an Indian company? How about Twitter, or Facebook? I am not denigrating Indian IT workers, but it doesn't seem that the Indian system produces much in the way of creativity or initiative in developing new products.
(Update: Instalanche while I am at work! Thanks, Glenn.)
54 comments:
I think Mr. Nayar is completely full of shit. His claim is a convenient dodge to politicians who are lurching towards protectionism. Obviously Indian IT workers are cheaper and that's the main reason for the outsourcing.
I have never experienced Mr. Nayar's observation. I've worked with a number of IT co-ops who have done great work on mind-numbingly boring tasks (anyone get excited about relational databases?).
On the other hand multiple software developers have told me the horrors of outsourced code development in India- so many bugs and headaches that it's probably just as cheap to develop the software in house.
Lou, keep in mind that these developing country employees' parents spent their days plowing fields and starving to death...the point that there are different cultures and values around the globe is just a fair point. I remeber the Jap auto execs making the same kind of statements years ago about US auto workers and auto companies (quality, pay, etc). His comments may not be 100% correct but it is something not to be ignored or dismissed.
@tesla
I get excited about relational databases. I'm coding for 30-50% less than I did before the dot bomb (with no benefits) because it's what I like to do. So yes, it's what everyone believes but it's not true.
On the other hand, I'm over 50 and not hired for jobs that are looking for recent grads.
Racism. Where do you think the India elite place Americans in the caste system?
Exactly right Dawg. The same could be said for Muslims and Jews. You are of the correct lineage or you are grist for the mill with ZERO chance of real opportunity. How do you think that will work out for them in the long term?
We are blessed by the quality of our competition.
FCB,
Yup. Our strength was instituting the first steps toward an economic meritocracy. Our failing was in stopping part way through mostly because the initial successes were so great it no longer appeared as important.
We already know that India is capitated by their race/religion attitude. i cannot help but think Ghandi considered his greatest failure the partition.
Minatti,
It is almost like you didn't read the Indian guy's comment you quoted. He is claiming the American IT grads (i.e. mostly workers) are not a good fit compared to 3rd world grunts. The emphasis is on workers who do mundane tasks.
He didn't claim the 3rd worlders are better innovators or product developers. He may be full of shit, but you are kind of proving his point by your comments!
Vineet's short answer: because most American college grads are "unemployable."
Having worked in the IT field for many years, I can tell you that it's because most Indians with hiring power are racist.
The dirty little secret here is that the only people in the world who think that racism is wrong are a handful of white Americans. Everybody else is shamless, or even proud, about advancing their co-ethnics.
Everybody else is shameless, or even proud, about advancing their co-ethnics.
Very true. But that is why we win, in the long run. And why the best and brightest the world over still flock to the US, despite everything.
Mutts beat purebreeds over the long run every time.
Sagar:
The IT executive quoted didn't say Americans were not a good fit, he said they were "unemployable."
I worked for a company that owned an offshore development group for which we resold services. We started using them for internal maintenance tasks, (i.e. not innovation, etc) and the quality of the work product was so poor we ended up taking that activity back. And this organization was CMM Level 5 certified!
I have yet to see a significant improvement in IT from ITIL, CMM, Six Sigma, etc. If you want lots of documentation they're great, but improving quality and productivity? maybe not so much.
India has produced tech companies like Satyam, Infosys, and Wipro.
Plus, many Indians have started major tech companies in the US (although these are IN the US, and hence due to the US system). Every major Silicon Valley tech company has at leat 1 Indian in their senior management.
But yes, creativity in India is not as high as the US. The social acceptance of creativity is less.
Been in the IT field for 20 years and never understood why everyone thinks Indians are such great IT employees. People will point to their College and Master's degrees...I point to the fact that a college education in India is about equal to a high school one here. They point to all there certs and I point to the fact that any monkey can get certified.
Bottom line is that Indian workers aren't that intelligent and absolutely can't think out of the box or work on their own. They want a fixed job with a specific set of instructions and if they are thrown the slightest curve ball they freeze. They have no real drive or imagination.
IT companies that hire based solely on buzz words and acronyms end up filled with workers who are good at buzz words and acronyms, but are often unable to apply them in realtime situations.
As with anything, we CAN derive some good from the laundry list of methodologies that are out there, but they have to be applied intelligently, with the goal of making the IT work proceed easier, not with simply giving better visibility to the front office over processes they don't want to take the time to truly understand.
As for American graduates being "unemployable"...part of that comes from schools that are out of touch with the work their grads will be required to do in the real world, part of that is because most companies doing IT work really don't know what they want or how to create an environment where they can figure out how to get it.
As for Indian IT workers being better? In my 25 years in the industry, I've seen some pretty impressive IT folks from India, with remarkable knowledge for the work. I've also seen mindless drones who are entirely helpless unless they have someone telling them what to do.
Much of outsourced work, in my experience, is sourced by the mindless drones. They lack the creativity to think outside of the requirements handed to them, and the inquisitiveness to question why things do or don't work. And they lack the basic problem-solving skills that is, in my opinion, a must-have for any truly decent IT professional...regardless of how many acronyms they can stack up behind their names.
All of this comes into play. If you want to A) be belittled like a 13-year-old despite 20 years of professional experience and B) never, ever find a job, then work with an Indian recruiter. If I get a job request from a recruiter with an Indian name, I generally wait several hours in hope that someone with better people skills appears linking me to the same job. I have never, EVER gotten a job via an Indian recruiter. If they treat the clients like they treat their contractors, it’s little wonder why. They also have no geographic knowledge of the US. No, I will not commute from Chicago to Atlanta for $25 dollars per hour. It doesn’t help if you repeat the question three times.
I remember a frank discussion with an IT manager at a Chicago bank where he put Indian programmers in three groups. The best emigrate to the US. The second best are in charge in India. The third group – the least skilled – are the ones that the jobs go to in India. He had 120 programmers in India doing the work of 40 US programmers for the same price.
Note that GE upper management is largely responsible for popularizing Indian offshoring in the US. They also do business deals with Iran and run the propaganda engine called MSNBC. They are also loosing money hand over fist. They are trying to position themselves to live off tax incentives to build wind-plants that fall apart shortly after they pay for themselves with tax incentives. If you find out that a manager is coming to your company and they have GE on their resume, update yours. They took over Washington Mutual with GE alumni and we see where that led them – from one of the top-rated places to work to the second biggest bankruptcy in US history in six years and two GE executives.
There is some truth to what Mr. Nayar states. From perspective of teaching IT --
* I have had a student actually state they can't wait to run a big network after 1 year of experience. I explained no one is going to hand over a multimillion dollar network to a newbie. They were all upset.
* I have had students complain to me about flunking a test. Yet their books were pristine (better resale according to one). I told them other careers beckon. One does not stay long in IT business without constant learning. If you don't want to read become a plumber.
* Reality is the top 20% scholastically of 18yo Indian students outnumber ALL of our students in the same age group.
On the other hand. As an employer in a large Fortune 10 --
* I have seen bodies come in the door and have 'Javascript for Dummies' under their arms. Unprepared, unable and unqualified. But they were cheeeep.
* The deep secret of higher education in India is that one can 'buy' a higher grade in a class. So that Indian whiz kid might be as dumb as a rock but the family had money.
* The US H-1B process permits '... or equivalent experience.' That is the open door that permits unqualified cheap hacks to come through the door.
* There is also the issue of wage payout. How could 2 Indians making $80k combined be cheaper than a single $50k American? Tax law. The two Indians are only paid $22k each here. Which means the corporation only has to pay matching withholding at that rate. The other $36k? Well that gets treated as G&A expense that avoids withholding tax. That $36k is passed over to the outsourcer. They skim some off the top and the balance is remitted to the 2 workers as pay in their own countries tax process. The upshot is the 2 Indians after tax pay is more than that single American will ever see.
As to the racism angle. Look in some form or another it exists everywhere. The trick is to overcome it, not complain about it.
Get your heads out of the sand! Our IT schools aren't producing the quality of programmers that America needs. My husband has a software business and does not outsource to India. But, he can't find Americans who know their stuff. So, he gets Indians who are already here and pays a premium. He cannot find Americans who have the skills and education for high-level (not grunt) programming.
Keep telling yourselves that American schools are doing a good job in IT education, and it will only get worse.
I have no Indian connections and am an Anglo-Saxon mutt. IT is going to go the way of the auto industry if we don't wake up.
Anon,
I would not quote Satyam as a great success. They got caught up in a scandal for cooking the books. That coupled with the fact that Satyam staff was not implementing required security protocols of the client. They have been bought out and no longer exist. The founder is now on trial for fraud, securities violations, etc.
India's great. Where else can you get a pair of new Tatas for $5000?
Let me see, the CEO of an Indian IT services company says his workers are better than ours. Shocking. It's almost as if he is promoting offshoring or saying his company is the bestest so hire him.
Well that's certainly an unbiased opinion we should be worried about.
"My husband has a software business and does not outsource to India. But, he can't find Americans who know their stuff. So, he gets Indians who are already here and pays a premium. He cannot find Americans who have the skills and education for high-level (not grunt) programming."
He does? Has he looked at the status of the person he is hiring? If person they are hiring are in certain H-1B or L-1 statuses he is breaking the law.
My husband has a software business and does not outsource to India. But, he can't find Americans who know their stuff.
Maybe that's what he's telling you, but the truth is that he can't find people at the price he's willing to pay. America is flooded with people with IT degrees who can't get work in that field.
As to the racism angle. Look in some form or another it exists everywhere. The trick is to overcome it, not complain about it.
Spoken like a corporate whore. Any concrete suggestions on "overcoming" it? Should white Americans start dying their skin brown?
"Everybody else is shameless, or even proud, about advancing their co-ethnics."
Very true. But that is why we win, in the long run.
You're insane.
Every major Silicon Valley tech company has at leat 1 Indian in their senior management.
The better to facilitate outsourcing and insourcing. That's the reason they are there.
1. Is there any country that comes close to the US in creativity and innovation? Not in Asia, perhaps Europe? Doubts about them too.
2. Instead of belittling US education, I see it as our demand for engineers etc exceeding the supply of people intrinsically able to do the work.
I am not in the IT field so I am surprised in reading the comments about "racism" being practiced by Indian companies. I sure would like to understand it better if other commenters have the time and inclination. Is there "sexism" as well? Americans are of all sorts of races so is the experience more "anti American" than it is racist?
In the 23 years I've been in the computer field, I've seen a wide variety of education vs skills that people bring to the job.
I think some people thought it would be easy and the positions make big bucks, so they did the least work possible, and aren't a good fit for the tasks at hand.
In my experience, few people really shine, most people can get by fine enough (and usually improve as the pick up on ways to do it better,) and the rest should just get a new job. Typical bell curve, and I've not found that foreign workers were any different.
I also think it depends on the education you receive. I've meet enough programmers who were taught to follow the book, and not the creative aspects of programming.
So, in the end, YMMV.
Maybe that's what he's telling you, but the truth is that he can't find people at the price he's willing to pay. America is flooded with people with IT degrees who can't get work in that field.
Very true. A lot of managers seem to despise paying IT professionals a rate that's commensurate with their experience because they can find so many others who appear to have the proper skill sets, but for much less a rate. Then they get frustrated when their bargain help doesn't work out and they have to pay more.
The best system architect I ever met was getting paid $120K+ for work in the Midwest and, based on what he was able to accomplish everywhere I ever saw him work, he was worth every cent. He gave his employers apps that saved them bucketloads of money. But at every place, the companies worked him almost double time (as in: 70-80 hour weeks). As a salaried employee, they were getting the best in the business for, effectively, half the price. And getting two years of work for every one. So it wasn't worth the guy's effort to get paid what he was worth.
The other side of that coin is that the lady's husband could be looking for such a perfect match, or with such meticulous precision, that he's almost guarantee to be disappointed. I've seen that as well
I am an Indian immigrant living in the USa. And let me tell you this:
(1) Most Indians are racist as all hell. They think they are somehow "superior",and when talking about Americans, out of earshot, they are openly and virulently racist.
A lot of this racism comes from the intense inferiority complex most Indian elites suffer from. Well , they claim that Indians are the greatets and the best minds in the world, yet, what does Indian society have to show for it? Pretty much nothing.
(2) Pretty much most Indians are dumb. They are so self-righteous and so full of themselves, that they dont even realise how stupid they sound, when they say thing like 'Americans are unemployable".
Mr Nayar, like Tesla said, is full of shit. Take his visa away,and let him stay in Hyderabad or Bangalore. We dont need ass-hats liek him in the USA.
I have to agree with many of the commenters here. I'm in engineering, not IT, but it's the same story. The vast majority of Indians I've managed and worked alongside are not self-starters, need a ridiculous amount of hand-holding, and are completely unable to think outside the box. They'll work crazy hours, yes, but you don't get much out of the effort. Not all of them are like this, of course. The more "Americanized" they are, the better they perform.
The American engineers I've hired are generally not as well-versed in theory, but when I give them a problem and a vague direction, they'll come back with an answer that at least works. To me, that's what helps get the job done. Theory is nice in academics, but the real world only cares that you get the job done.
I'm not worried about anyone, Indians included, surpassing America as the leading innovator in the world. They might eventually beat us economically, but that'll be because we shot ourselves in the foot, not because they're better than us.
I've worked with East Indians and Americans over the last 15 years on several large development projects. They all have pluses and minuses but I'll take Americans all the way. American-led technical teams are typically diverse because they recruit for the best skills not the racial background. East Indian-led teams are liable to be all East Indian which brings large problems. East Indians seem to avoid confrontation at all costs so any problems with staff ends up in your lap. Having said all that, I really am grateful to have any team at all right now. The largely East Indian crew is a hodge-podge of skill and communication levels but ultimately get the job done even if done with the help of large chair and a long whip.
And furthermore, there is a distinct eau d'sexism with some of the Indian men with which I work. It doesn't matter because I'm the boss but it will end up getting in their way sooner or later. I give them their due and they damn well better provide me the same. I'll pull the rug out from under them quicker than they can say Bogwan Shree Rajneesh.
Americans are of all sorts of races so is the experience more "anti American" than it is racist?
Indians are racist in the sense that they disciminate in favor of Indians.
You suffer from the oddly American view of racism, that it is directed against one particular group. Like most people, Indians divide the world into Indians and "others".
Americans have trouble wrapping their heads around this because they've bought into the idea that racism is a white thing.
American-led technical teams are typically diverse because they recruit for the best skills not the racial background. East Indian-led teams are liable to be all East Indian
I.e. racism.
I'm in IT at a multinational household name computer hardware, software and services company. My division employs a lot of Indians in both India and here in the U.S., both regular and contractor employees. Most non-Indians find Indians extremely difficult to work with, some have excellent skills but some do not (like the rest of the IT world), and with some exceptions they are the rudest people I work with on a daily basis. I see no evidence that they are harder working or more inventive, creative, etc. They are rote, by-the-book workerbees for the most part.
Indians' opinions of Indians are inconsequential. Talk to the rest of the IT world about Indians. They're no better, no worse, and there are severe cultural and etiquette issues.
My company currently oursources to India and we have to fix 80 % of what we get back.
Who is incompetent?
Managers who are IT knowledgeable know what American IT workers are worth. Managers who are MBAs and whose computer savvy extends to IE 5.0 and a spreadsheet see only dollars.
Case in point: our small team supported and customized an off-the-shelf CRM system for a software company. Before our jobs got outsourced to India, we submitted a budget of $300k for six projects that year, including hardware. After we were dumped, the cost estimate from the Indians for the first project alone was $250k, without hardware.
The reality versus the spreadsheet: reality wins every time.
Spoken like a corporate whore. Any concrete suggestions on "overcoming" it? Should white Americans start dying their skin brown?
Easy. Just outperform the Indian guy by a factor of 4.
Jews used to have this problem in America. It used to be said that a Jew had to be twice as good to get a job. So their response was to become 10X as good.
So now perceptions are different.
Easy. Just outperform the Indian guy by a factor of 4.
What part of "racism" do you not understand? They don't care if we outperform them.
Jews used to have this problem in America.
Yeah, and once Jews got into postion where they could hire and fire, they promptly used that power to hire Jews. Not the best example you couild have chosen.
So now perceptions are different.
You are not painting a very flattering picture of Jews, Simon.
Maybe the reason they are having trouble finding good candidates is the pay. I used to work in IT but left for a higher paying field. I think the only field you could find with worse pay rates is teaching.
I've noticed the racism too. I had a white friend who wanted to marry an indian girl. Her parents flipped out and sent her back to India for an arranged marriage.
I apologize on behalf of this idiot, though I'm an hyphenated-american myself. Its an embarrassing and laughable claim, regardless of whether youre American or Indian.
I don't work in IT, but my industry has also started to outsource to India and my experience agrees with the poster who said
"They lack the creativity to think outside of the requirements handed to them, and the inquisitiveness to question why things do or don't work. And they lack the basic problem-solving skills"
They're supposed to be laying out pages, but all they do copy text into a graphic file and post it to an ftp site. I call it Pour and Post.
The mindset of M. Simon explained.
Lazy and unemployable? Depends on if they actually know their shit. Some of the best hackers I know are lazy as hell, and because of that they automate, script, automate and automate like crazy to get a system that has multiple levels of failure recovery and alerting. I have worked with a lot of Desi and for serving hellish hours or dealing with TPS reports I wouldn't trade a single one, but very few I know who were not educated in the USA have a preternatural hacking ability that can find answers quickly and almost subconsciously.
Same thing with Chinese: I had a guy as a junior who was 6 years older than me, with a Masters in physics from MIT, and he definitely never needed to be told twice how to fix something, but he just did not have a hacker's troubleshooting skill.
Then again, I'm about as undisciplined as they come, except during a troubleshooting session. Kind of like Harry Tuttle, actually ;)
I was in the IT field for 28 years before I went to a University to teach IT.
I worked with many Indians and Asians and the majority are just coders. They need to be given detailed instructions on what to do. Once they have that they are okay. Both though are as racist as all get out and seem to think that because they have a Masters they are Gods. Actually had a instance where I told an Indian DB programmer that his DB design was causing problems with a particular app because it was not intializing the fields correctly. He drew himself and said to me that he had a masters and his design was right!
I looked at him and told him that I had two Masters and his design was wrong and when I found the problem I was going to shove it down his throat. It did not take me long to find it.
Second instance was also in a DB routine. An app was using the routine to query a large DB and it never would finish, it would run for hours and then time out. The DB programmer - a different one told me the sql code was just too complicated to run.
Took me about a half day to figure out what they were doing was ass-backwards and if I just did an outer-join I would have the desired results in about 20 minutes. That app existed for two years before I looked at it.
Realize I am not a DBA, nor a DB programmer, I am just a typical American programmer who when presented with a problem finds a solution.
I've met many brilliant Indian programmers, but they don't work for outsourcing sweatshops. They work in Silicon Valley startups and are, as often as not, from IIT.
I've also had to fight with "pure coder" types who can make stuff work if it's perfectly spec'ed, but have a hard time designing anything interesting.
One thing that is true is that few American-born programmers have much tolerance for bureaucracy or "process" - unless they are massively paid.
And management who drinks the silly acronym Kool-aid deserves the software they'll get from it.
The Indian work & educational culture is very authoritarian and junior employees are expected to do what they are told and not make waves or take initiative. From this CEOs point of view, i.e. someone who runs an Indian company, a product of that system may indeed be better - for him. In an American company, where employees are expected to solve problems, take initiative, etc, that's not so good - the new employee will sit at their desk for two months doing something that's obviously wrong because they didn't want to speak up. The American model is generally superior because individuals find ways to make themselves more productive. (You can also call it the Japanese manufacturing model or the Dutch model.) However, Indian workers that work here for a few years, or in an American company overseas, get "Americanized" and learn to speak up, take initiative, etc.
One other issue is that in India, a much smaller percentage of people go to college, so the "average" Indian IT worker may be someone who's been at the top of their class their whole life and their university may have been as competitive as MIT. That said, there are good and bad people everywhere - or more accurately, people who have the skills to do their job and people who don't. (Nobody's really good or bad, we all have different talents and capabilities and interests.)
Bottom line is both Americans and Indians have good work ethic and are motivated to succeed. We actually have a lot in common and are very compatible. The people who don't have the work ethic are the Europeans, sorry to say. A generalization, obviously, but mostly true from what I've seen.
A lot of people don't realize that the Indian immigrants you get in America and Europe are the absolute cream of the crop- many Indians live as poorly as your typical African. I read an article which claimed that the IQ of Indian immigrants to America was 3 standard deviations above the mean for India as a whole. In other words immigration becomes a sorting process and you can't necessarily make inferences about India from Indian immigrants.
guys! read what the CEO said and then comment.
what he said is Americans are not ready to mundane and mind numbing tasks which the Indians are ready to do. He is not talking about the capabilities of any race. Just that for the given task, Americans don't come forward.
After reading all the comments i'm wondering who is racists- Indians or the Americans?! :-|
"America is flooded with people with IT degrees who can't get work in that field".
This is true. I graduated from college in 2007 with a degree in IT. Some employers only require a degree and no experience. But all the interviews I went to, the employer always wanted someone with some type of experience.
I feel that because I have no experience, I am not employable. I think to differ because what I learned in college can prepare me for a job if employers would just take the time to train new graduates. There are a lot of Americans that can do this type of work just as good as any Indian or Asian.
When I got into the job market, I realized that experience in IT was everything and a degree doesn't mean a lot without the experience. I couldn't even get an IT Helpdesk job working for less than what they the job offered. Go figure. And I am a great worker.
So here I am. Two years later. No IT job and believing that college is all bullshit. I feel that college was a waste of my time because I still can't find a job that only requires a degree without experience. I could have done better just working my way up the ladder and then getting the degree. Seems ass backwards doesn’t it?
Don’t get me wrong, I do have a job but it’s not the job I want. I am not unhappy with what I am doing it’s just not what I want to do. This job pays very well and does not require a degree. So now, I’m just trying to work my way up and take shit as it comes.
Americans are not lazy or unemployable in the IT field. It’s the people who believe such bullshit that’s so stupid. Who do they think developed this technology in the first place?
I’m tired of being bashed by foreigners in my own country. And for anyone, foreign or domestic to say so, why don’t they just leave the US and then they won’t have to worry about it?
I graduated from college in 2007 with a degree in IT. Some employers only require a degree and no experience. But all the interviews I went to, the employer always wanted someone with some type of experience.
meh...
This isn't a new phenomenon. Had the same problem back in 1987. BA in Computer Science & Information Systems, took me 2 years to find anything close to a computer job. And it sucked at that. But it got me started, and helped build my resume.
Some thoughts on landing that first IT job. Find places you can get experience. Volunteer at a library, internet cafe, school, university, etc... Doing the job is more important then getting paid for it. Make sure you put anything relevant on your resume.
Networking is very important. Dig up local forums and groups that meet that are in your field. Get to know people, and help out, that'll get you noticed. Then pass your resume around.
Oh yeah, also look for intern opportunities in your area. My wife's company has special programs for recent grads, and are always begging to find good, qualified people.
Keith_Indy,
Thanks for the info. I appreciate it.
Lou,
Thanks for the post.
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